More like "going Bust" really, when you can only place 2 of your 3 skus in the top 100 on Amazon, and when your best priced one (Arcade@$199) is not even on the top 50 while your competitor (PS3 80Gb $399) is rank #7 in sales (the 160Gb PS3 model selling better than the 60Gb 360 model, while priced $200 higher).

Interesting to see Ballmer lose his cool when getting the hardball questions though :)

Greg. Please leave. Unless you can make constructive criticism, your kind is not wanted, nor required round here.

The fact is, at the moment, a lot of people who have been holding off on buying a PS3 are only just seeing the value in the console.

Just wait till Christmas when parent's wallets and purses are stretched and they look for the cheapest options. Stock allowing, Wii will walk away with this Christmas, while 360 will undoubtably make up the the rest of the majority of sales.

Sony's tactic of artificially keeping the price of its console high by "upgrading" it will back fire with the people who buy the most consoles at Christmas being parents.

Even if little Jonnie asks for a PS3, when his parents see it costs £279.99 compared to £149.99 for the Wii and from £129.99 for the 360, little Jonnie isn't going to be getting a PS3; especially when you factor in little Jonnie wanting a game or two.

That's why I'm not buying in as much PS3 stock this Christmas. I'm not anticipating it moving; not because people don't want it, but because I think parents who have no brand loyality nor any sense of how consoles and game exclusivity works will simply be unwilling to spend that much money when the economy is as unstable as it is.

@Brett Stocks

Totally agree and I think you have hit the nail on the head, its all about sales.

A lot of this is about Market Share as the games are where the money is not the hardware. Shift more consoles = shift more games.

This Christmas the difference in price will be enough to turn the heads of even those who have some form of brand loyalty and want an upgrade from an old console, let alone all the folks who's kids just want a games console and lets be real who has not heard of Microsoft and the Xbox 360 its not obscure, parents who know nothing about consoles recognise the name, ITS GOING TO OUTSELL THE PS3 PERIOD !! (and yes this is from someone who owns a PS3 having paid an overly inflated £300 a while ago)

Did Greg @ number 1 really just say "more like going bust".
Now genius maybe i'm not but what kind of fanboy drivel suggests Microsoft going bust

@ 3, while I agree with you to a point, I think you're missing out the massive impact that market share and attach rate, the latter being the most important statistic when considering which console to target your latest funding at, have upon the perception within the industry as to which console is actually doing best.

With the Xbox 360 having an attach rate far in excess of both the PS3 and Wii, it's no surprise that the industry as well as the majority of retailers still see the Xbox as the most profitable console to stock and the one best prepped to take advantage of the Christmas period.

Wii will walk away with a lot of cash as I said, provided they can supply stock, but I would bet between 70-80% of that cash will go to Nintendo through hardware and first party game sales. Factor in Wii's dismal attach rate for third party publishers and you've got a recipie for disconent. It's only because of its reputation with the general populace that publishers are still giving it a chance.

So I am "unwanted" for pointing out that MS's price cutting strategy, aside for maybe the UK in part, has visibly not worked as well as might have been expected?
So the Amazon Best seller ranking is unwelcomed here because .. it isn't showing numbers favorable to Microsoft?
Wait .. Is this a Microsoft shareholder board?

My comments were not fanboyish, and were merely pointing out at sales ranking facts and Ballmer's overraction at a question that was perfectly valid from the San Jose Mercury News' reporter.

On the other side, your overreaction (Brett) to my post I find very revealing of the attitude of some Microsoft fanboys, which is plaguing boards and forums all over the internet. I am not going to use the words "paid shill", but it's not like MS hasn't done that in the past eh?

Last, about the market.
Sony is chosing the way of profitability, instead of trying to maintain a #2 position at all cost (they officially gave up on the #1 recently), even if it means losses per each console sold. I don't know about you, but financially speaking, it seems more viable.
Now Sony might be overconfident in their software lineup and the attraction of the Blu Ray player, but time will tell (in any case we all know that the Wii will be the #1 sale over the xmas season, there is no doubt about it).
I suspect that when parents will look around for little jimmy's Xmas, while maybe also wanting to buy a LCD HDTV, some offers including a PS3 might be too good to pass, not including the reasoning that for the price the familly also get a HD Blu Ray player :)

The "They" in the market paragraph refering to a #2 position maintained at all cost, even profitability, was obviously in reference to Microsoft and their Xbox.

Right Greg,

You see. This is a website for people in the games industry, ie. people with a real stakehold, not some perceived need to voice their opinion.

I own a small chain of stores in the UK, so believe me, if I was a fanboy, I wouldn't last five minutes. I was calling it as I saw it.

So please Greg, if you're going to be a fanboy, please. Do go elsewhere.

Well, attacking the person instead of discussing the points (relative to finances and market). Well you call it like you see it, and I'll do the same. Okay?
Or am I being singled out because I made a play on words between "going bust" instead of "going gangbusters"?

Right, I'm going to take a step back here.

You weren't being singled out. But by making silly comments like saying Microsoft is going to go bust makes you look like nothing but an uneducated fanboy. Now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but please, understand. Our views on this industry aren't motivated by petty rivalries; they're motivated by cold hard cash and I'm not prepared to invest in something that the market conditions suggest isn't going to happen.

You have to admit that if you didn't have a clue about consoles, or the games, that the choice between the Xbox and the PS3 would be a simple one. The Xbox would win out everytime on price.

I have absolutely no doubt that there is pent up demand for the console, but at the moment, the most asked question of my staff is: "When are Sony going to cut their prices – I don't care about a bigger hard drive; I don't have more than £200 to spend on a console." When my staff hear that every day, I have no reason to believe that Sony are going to have a good Christmas.

Market research companies are already suggesting money is going to be at its tightest this Christmas, more than any other in recent history. Video games aren't going to suffer that much, but the consoles themselves will.

Now, let's answer your points:

1) "So the Amazon Best seller ranking is unwelcomed here because .. it isn't showing numbers favorable to Microsoft?
Wait .. Is this a Microsoft shareholder board?"

So, you're putting your faith in a chart that changes hourly? Hmm... If I based my stock intake on hourly changes, I'd have so much overstock that the insurance payments alone would drive me out of business.

Yes, Amazon's charts do have their merits, but don't mistake them for what they are designed to do and that is represent what people are buying at that moment in time in the hope that it might drive visitors to the site to make the same purchase.

2) "My comments were not fanboyish, and were merely pointing out at sales ranking facts and Ballmer's overraction at a question that was perfectly valid from the San Jose Mercury News' reporter."

Having attended Steve Ballmer's recent speech in London for another one of my businesses, I can tell you that he is very loud and overacting at the quietest of times. Sure, I've only seen him the once, but going on his previous track record of interviews and public appearances, I'd say his lively responses to the questions were in keeping with his character. Brett Stocks – Observation (You'll get that if you were at the event).

3) "On the other side, your overreaction (Brett) to my post I find very revealing of the attitude of some Microsoft fanboys, which is plaguing boards and forums all over the internet. I am not going to use the words "paid shill", but it's not like MS hasn't done that in the past eh?"

One, if Microsoft want to pay me to call the facts, then then know where to find me. I'm calling nothing more than the market trends I'm seeing day to day in the UK games industry.

Also, remember what the purpose of this website is. It is for people in the games industry and I know a couple of people who are very senior in this industry post under aliases; so don't assume that you're talking to another mindless fool who doesn't know what his or she is talking about when you come on here.

And if you want me to sit down with you and explain the reason-de-etre so to speak of why people we refer to as 'fanboys' act like they do when, then I can, I have a MBA which focused on behavioral purchases.

3) "Last, about the market.
Sony is chosing the way of profitability, instead of trying to maintain a #2 position at all cost (they officially gave up on the #1 recently), even if it means losses per each console sold. I don't know about you, but financially speaking, it seems more viable."

True, but Sony doesn't have a choice. SCE was until very recently a major cash cow, accounting for over 50% of its profits at one point if I remember correctly. These days, that couldn't be further from the truth.

At the moment, Sony not only suffers from a lower install base; it also suffers from poor attach rates making it more risky to develop a title for the platform. It's not going to die by any means, but it isn't going to be successful by any means either.

The simple fact is Sony's shareholders won't allow SCE to make a loss; especially while the firm is still struggling to get Blu-ray penetration above the 5% mark.

4) "Now Sony might be overconfident in their software lineup and the attraction of the Blu Ray player, but time will tell (in any case we all know that the Wii will be the #1 sale over the xmas season, there is no doubt about it)."

Indeed it will. And I have no doubt, that under previous economic conditions, the PlayStation brand would have been strong enough to shrug off the higher price. However, we're under the economic conditions we are, and they simply don't cater towards higher priced luxuries, especially when you can get the same thing at less than half the price.

5) "I suspect that when parents will look around for little jimmy's Xmas, while maybe also wanting to buy a LCD HDTV, some offers including a PS3 might be too good to pass, not including the reasoning that for the price the familly also get a HD Blu Ray player :)"

Right, news flash. Games consoles – that's everyone from Wii's and 360s, through to PS3s and flashy PCs – they're all luxuries, and if jobs start going like they look like they will, then those luxuries will be out the door faster than an Essex rubgy team can neck a pint of lager.

And I know what you're referring to: those Bravia+PlayStation bundles... people simply won't buy them. Ask the average man or woman on the street the difference between high def and standard def and they won't see it or won't care. All they care about is if it receives the weekend's sport and soaps. It's only gamers and technophiles that have to have high def.

I'd estimate less than 10% of TVs that are high def capable are actually used to their full potential. Indeed, when research shows most people think high def televisions give high def quality out the box and can't tell the difference, then high def really isn't all that.

Add to that, that you can go down your local Asda or Tesco and pick up a no-name brand 37-inch high def LCD for around £350 ($640) and you soon start to see that that argument has no business sense.

Lastly; if Sony suddenly lowered the price of its 37-inch LCD 1080p Bravia by £100-£200, would you bat an eye lid and say Sony was going out of business. No, of course you wouldn't, because it's a combination of falling manufacturing prices and market saturation at that price point – neither of which show an impending doom.

i have my prefered console after owning all, and its about games for me,and free online not console price, but it is about price for parents, especially this credit crunch xmas,
i dont care about fanboys i care about sales, neither console is going bust, for me ps3 is selling better, but i think over xmas 360 will do very very well, this is great news for a business, personal choices aside

@BrettStocks

Greg supported his arguments in a very articulate manner and his points were interesting as were yours until you decided to write an essay!

“This is a website for people in the games industry, ie. people with a real stakehold, not some perceived need to voice their opinion.”

You are probably as unwilling to prove your credentials on this site as much as the next man so don’t assume, as ‘Greg’ may be your boss for all you know!

@DJ

Since Brett Stocks owns the stores he refers too, I'm going to go ahead to doubt that's his boss. Or maybe you just decided to skip that part of the conversation because it wouldn't fit your poorly constructed argument?

Granted, he rambled on quite a bit in his previous respond, but at least he shows that he cares enough about the conversation/industry that he is willing to take the time to respond to every point and elaborate as to why he's saying what he's saying.

Before we react further here, let's look at the economy -- globally -- because in case you haven't noticed, things aren't all that great right now, jobs are being lost by the thousands and banks aren't lending anyone any more money, especially for frivolous things like PS3's. Although some may not be able to afford the money on a PS3, they would have a greater chance of affording the 360, and in not so many words, that's ALL Brett Stocks has been saying.

“Let’s look at the economy”

Yes lets look at the positive impacts underselling has had on our economy and economies shall we.

Underselling in itself is a luxury that only corporation’s had and only can benefit from. The consumer wins in the short run but industry, retail and economy losses on the whole. I have been a share holder of a company that decided to take a risk with my money and guess what my shares aren’t worth squat. I owe in fact!

“Sony is choosing the way of profitability,” Well sir with an MBA who specialised in behavioural purchases should understand owing businesses that are being profitable is key to a REAL and stable industry, shares and economy.

“Jobs are being lost by the thousands” And you guys are clearly next for the chopping block, as you are effectively using the media hysteria of the credit collapse in what sounds like a point of sale for this Christmas season! This is playing into the hands of the underselling and undercutting corporation’s short sighted and in my opinion irresponsible behaviour. (Supermarkets inculded!)

DJ, I really haven't got time to argue today, but all I will say is that if you had any idea about what you are talking about, you'd realise that with the exception of Nintendo, this industry has always been about making a loss on hardware and making it back in royalities from software sales.

Exactly, And how does that display a realistic and profitable business model for anyone involved other than the far reaching goals of a corporations dominances over the gaming and distribution of games!

It doesn’t argument over.

Exactly, And how does that display a realistic and profitable business model for anyone involved other than the far reaching goals of a corporations dominances over the gaming and distribution of games!

It doesn’t argument over.

Yes DJ. I do agree it's a stupid model, but it has worked fine for the video games for the past 20 years and it's worked for the razor industry since the 1920s. In other words, it's the way the industry works.

End of argument ;)

Hey guys, some pretty heavy arguments here, personally I see the Microsoft price cuts almost like when a great game goes into a platinum or a classic range. It doesn't mean it is a poor game, it just means that the publisher or company has sold enough to have made healthy profits and can then offer their product at a better price.

It's not like it has been "reduced to clear"

If you have played games like Drake's Fortune or Ratchet and Clank on PS3, you do not think less of these quality games because they enter a reduced price range, its just to allow everyone to enjoy them.

Microsoft have a very large established userbase and will naturally struggle to sell as many consoles now as they have in previous years as there are simply less potential console purchasing consumers out there. So of course it won't be in a top selling list, but it is still selling well considering general lifespans of consoles.

You eventually reach saturation point with any product, and you're never going to be aiming your product at someone who already has one, you look to a new market

PS3 owners may then wish to get a 360 as well and this will lead to more game sales for both companies.

Wii owners the same, they may love their Wii but yearn for next Gen graphics and this provides another option for them without overstretching themselves financially.

More consoles under tvs = more game and peripheral sales = industry continues to grow.

I'm not looking for any kind of argument at all, I just feel that as long as the industry makes money, and people enjoy their jobs and quality of life, then why do people feel that price drops are sometimes percieved as almost an acknowledgement of failure?.

The downside is that consumers who purchased consoles a few weeks ago are now returning to stores annoyed at the blameless staff for not telling them about a price cut when the staff member did not know. My sympathy is with you guys.........

Anyway my point is why criticise Microsoft, or any company, for trying their best to bring some joy into life.

We should all remember that gaming is escapism and not get bogged down in debates.

Stop reading this and go and play your favourite game!!

Interesting topics raised by all of you. But personally speaking, In my store the sales go from Xbox 360, to wii, to PS3. And the free online isnt a seller, everyone and their mother knows how ****ty sony's free online service is. Its going to be a very interesting holiday with PS Home launching, and the PS3's major titles to be released, but Xbox 360's new dash, and games like gears of war 2, and potentially an external blu-ray player are going to be great competition.

its true the whole world is in ression so how the hell duz microsoft think ppl will be able to pay for on line or how the hell duz little jonny think his parents are gonna be able to afford his £400 ps3 for x-mas cum on both of you xbox make online free and sony cut the price (i own both these consoles so i'm not a fan boy of either)

Sorry Drew, had to post this from your comment above!

"£400 ps3 for x-mas cum on both of you"

"but it has worked fine..for the past 20 years and it's worked for the razor industry since the 1920s."

This reminds of a dream I had the other night when my bank manager says the same thing,

then I punch him.

I'd rather have a Wii and an Xbox 360 for Christmas than just the PS3, for only £10 difference in price! Fact.

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