well grainger games imported it, sold it under the counter as the recipt said "hardware rental" and they import allot of games. especially DS games.

shame there isn't a reporting hotline.

Yep yet again Grainger Games are selling imported games in Hartlepool, they are selling Ghostbusters on Xbox 360 with a dodgy BBFC 15 sticker over the amercian ESRB rating for just under £40.

Myself who works for a one of the many game retailers in the UK can't help but feel really annoyed that this how there company is expanding so fast. By selling imported games before the other honest retailers get instock the british versions.

Please can somebody investigate this because it is way out of line that how my shop is not allowed to sell these imported titles and play fair by the law and suffer in terms of sales. Where as a comapny who got a MCV retailer award can obivously get away with selling illegal imported goods under the counter as a "manager's special" or "console rental".

As regards import games without BBFC.

If there is NO BBFC Printed on the disk with the Valid License number, not just a sticker, then Trading Standards can be contacted for BBFC rated material been sold without the correct certifaction. Action will be taken.

If the Disk has a BBFC Printed on it but the Case art does not have BBFC's stickers can be applied to the Case as the Media is Certified as conforming to the BBFC.

I too work for a major north east reatailer and can assure you that the copies of ghostbusters on 360 that grainger were selling on wednesday of last week were north american with the ERSB cert on disc and box. They were selling it under the counter and tried to cover it up on the receipt as a hardware rental. By friday when the Ps3 version officially launched they had covered the ERSB cert with a BBFC 15 sticker (even though the 360 version hasnt been rated by the BBFC). If you look at the stock they sell stuff like GTA 4 / San andreas / The getaway / Manhunt which carry a 18 BBFC cert. There copies are from somewhere else in europe where they carry a 16/18+ pegi rating. As Pegi is not enforcable by law yet they are freely selling them to underage kids, which is appauling.
There Ds sections contain about 60% ERSB rated american versions. And they freely sell new releases as soon as they arrive instore which can be as much as 3/4 days early.
How are they still in buisness. The major publishers and trading standards needs to look into this because at the minute this is a farce.

Oh no, we wouldn't like to see a smaller company do well would we? Let's call the police? We've got to report them NOW! Let's all just be happy with the vice like grip the "Game" group has and the market wrecking loss leader tactics of the supermarkets. No thanks. I want choice. If I want to buy Ghostbusters as a US import I could easily buy it from ebay anyway. Personally I'd rather buy it from a friendly high street retailer and know my money is helping a small company stand up to the mega companies.

Everyone is selling it - what you expect though. Indies get screwed over by nationals all the time and it gives them a chance to sell and make some real margin which makes up for the loses.

You want stock, find a supplier in the UK that can get it for you.

Post your email address and someone will contact you !

So call the Police you say - I have googled your name Paul and can see that you advice people on downloading films. Is taht now legal then?????

Also Xenon Xyanide and CIDERMAN360 also both work in the same Hartlepool Game Station store so why did you not just type the one post together instead of making out it was 2 different points of view.

Folks - we like to see the industry chatting in the MCV comments section, but can we please make sure we stop referring specifically to certain people or stores. It puts us in a tough position and we don't want want to have to lock comments on the story. Thanks.

Hope you are well Ben? :)

Sorry mate - but this forum has an indies name on here from teh start and 2 of the people doing this work at Gamestation.

How is it fair for them to slag of Grainger and then when someone mensions they are from Gamestation we are not allowed?

Would not mind if they were indies - but they are not. And one of them teaches people to download films.

Gamestation calling Grainger ne'erdowells. Interesting

On a lighter note.

How well does Co-Op play over live?

"dont cross the beams !!!!"

I'm good thanks mate, and you?

All I'm saying is that it would be appreicated if all involved just make sure that it doesn't escalate. We've already had to delete a couple of comments on this story that were offensive and very personal toward certain people.

Avoid names, avoid accusations - that's all. We don't want to stifle debate - it's part of what makes the site. We just want to make sure that you guys have the freedom to debate without us peering over your shoulder.

Can understand that Ben - but them 2 work in the same store, pretending that they are not working together and are trying to get people into trouble.

You know yourself how important import sales are too indies - having been in a similar position yourself before you went to MCV.

Absolutely - I'm certainly not going to condemn any indie for what they do or do not choose to sell. I've lost count of the guys I once knew who ran decent independent game shops only to see their businesses fade away. If I were in that postion I'd certainly be looking at what added value I could offer over my rivals. And I'm happy for you guys to fight your corner, which is why I want to make sure we don't have to hide any more comments.

Just not nice when you get someone from a National that earns wage and trying to mess with a real Indies bread and butter. We all thought these two were other indies - which seemed weird why they never sold imorts, as most indies do. Helps the, survive and put food on teh table.

Take care Ben

Seems grainger have stop selling ghostbusters today and have deined anything with the sale of it... seems somebody knew that they were in the wrong and have no returns of any of those games that they've sold.

Interesting, take care john

I feel sorry for anybody that has bought a game from the shop. can a shop refuse returns of a game if it was sold faulty? I dont want to pick sides here but it certainly sounds like grainger is in the wrong here. It is out of order if somebody starts mentioning names and where is the proof that if these two people are from gs or mentioned that they were from a indie shop, seriously if somebody mentioned my name on a forum I would be quite annoyed, . I been in grianger jarrow & newcastle and the staff are nice nothing wrong with the staff. but the way how the shop operates is a bit iffy. I hate to say this but there are always two sides to a story and if you walk into any grianger games shop you'll see that they do sell imported ds games, xbox games with the incorrect ratings and such forth. Breaking street dates is a regular thing because me and a few mates from college walk into Chips and asked when riddick was going to be released on xbox and this was the week it was coming out, the guy at chips said friday. But grainger were selling it on a thursday. stating that you will do anything to compete is ok, but i think grainger as trying to throw this back, ive heard of random stuff but getting personal and naming people is not the way how to discuss serious matters but not mentioning that somebody downloading movies?? were is the proof if she/he does such as thing?, where is it on google? and who is xenon xyanide, its just an alias with no info on mr nobody or ciderman.I was expecting proof or something but there isnt anything?? john or chris. propaganda? maybe so.
I feel sory for ciderman, everything he has highlighted is valid so have a few other people i know. Again the staff at grianger stores are not at wrong it is the operations which sound like there in the wrong. so I think its best not to mention names people :)

25 quid trade on sunday for gbusters and now a very nervous shop assistant said the same thing to me today. I thought i'd do a bit of scowing about on the web and it seems i'm not the only one whos miffed about the no trade in thing. i still had the slip but yeah it says hardware rental. probs the way how they get away with it :( i can honestly say i'm not shopping there again, its good thing ive still got a ebay account so i can sell it :) good game but its short and i wont play it again. Live isnt too much cop though

I knew this thing would come back cause bother for company anybody that imported it.
it doesnt matter if your a indie or a national, selling imported games with the incorrect ratings is aganist the law. I've had my own fair share of poo.
Saying that GAME is evil simiply wont hide the fact G.games is doing something wrong. i cant imagine the frustration on other competitors if i worked in a nearby shop. I thought this kind of thing stop years ago with breaking dates and wierd return poloices. why dont you john or chris, even ben type grainger games on google and look at some of the comments.

I for one agree with the "friendly staff" comment but it didnt stop a certain somebody from putting a US version zelda phantom hourglass in a english box. Apprently "we didnt sell that mate"
yeah gamestation can be smelly and attract goths and GAME the staff are like real life Keanu Reeves robots, but at least i know i'm getting what i paid for. This isnt a dig at other indies.

On the other hand, yeaah I hear you bud.... anybody under fire at the place where they work is gonna defend any issues that are said about it, but i think people are starting to come forward ( and i hope im not the only one) about the way how things are going.
It must be awful seeing people write up about your company and yeeah its porbably not the staffs fault in the stores its probably higher up but I cannot help but feel really annoyed at the customer service at grainger games.

Just looking at the place on the highstreet has made me go blind. Why, oh why is it bright orange?

As both a customer of Grainger but also someone who does shop around a lot of the above comments are crazy, Grainger is a well established company in the North East and after speaking with one of there top managers it is now known that they are planning huge expansion over the next few months and are also expanding out of there North East roots so now the whole country can benefit from the cheap prices they offer, also google any company and you will get a mix of both good and bad comments, google Jesus and God and you will also get good and bad comments and these people created the world. Alan Sugar you hit the nail on the head with the just looking a the place on the high street, thats answers your question of why orange. Now with the backing they have now recieved it is time for Grainger to move down the country like a wave of blinding orange and i for one wish them all the best taking on the competition and making the market a fairer place.

Ask Ben from MCV whom I am - I am not someone that works at Grainger game. He knows who I am - I am wholesaler in teh UK that knows imported games are indies bread and butter.

Sorry - Somebody who cares - you are the one that was saying that I am from Grainger.

For Alex s - google "CIDERMAN360" and the last hit will be a site called "Torrentreactor"

Sadly I can not post the link on here.

All in all - you have 2 people that work at a Gamestation (as is shows they work there on the "MySpace" site and the positions that they hold. They are unahppy with the imports, as they are losing out on sales on the PS3 and there is nothing they can do. They would love to sell these imports, but can't.

So they have come on here and grassing up and indie and trying to get them into trouble.

Oh dear, this whole discussion is a big fail for most involved.

Ultimately, the law in the UK says that games not rated by the BBFC for the UK should not be sold by a retailer in the UK to the public.

Forget all this "Grainger that, Gamestation this, indies do this" waffle e.t.c

The law is the law. If the public wants to import they can do so, legally, from abroad, as the law allows this. It does not allow indies and other uk businesses to make a fast buck

Developers and publishers complain, in some cases, about the damage preowned does to them, well what about the European publishers who are hit by uk businesses importing and selling these imports in the UK?

If people from other companies are getting annoyed it will be because some companies and indies seem to think they can break the law to compete. This is not right and I do not think any publisher, developer, publication, would support this.

OK then - lets let all the people that have nothing to do with the games industry sell them on Ebay (and get away with it like all the other stuff that gets sold that should not) - make some nice cash out of a market that is there (and will never go away - as people will always want import) and let the indies drop like flys - the back bone of the computer games industry.

Publisher being pissed off???? Sony.... Why did they no lock the the consoles?

MS - same with them and the publishers that do not lock the games?

In this day and age when the major high Street retailers are using every trick in the book to gain market share, why is it that when an INDIE uses their own INITIATIVE the major players start to complain.

If Game, Gamestation, HMV etc all stuck to a reasonable RRP instead of trying to bribe customers away from Specialists, Indies would not sell import games.

The only reason Indies sell import games early is that this is the only way to be ahead of the High Street Stores & supermarkets.
By selling imports like Ghostbusters it secures a decent margin and a valued source of income. As well as give the customer what they want. I hear all day how wrong it is for SONY to exclusively sell it on PS3, PS2 what about us say my Xbox customers.

I defy any employee of GAME, GAMESTATION, HMV or SUPERMARKETS to do our job for the little margins we have to work with. We sell new releases for 40 having bought them from centresoft at 37 my local supermarket sells them for 38

I will sell any game that they cannot, import or otherwise just to survive in this industry.

Imports, Pre-owned there are always someone saying its wrong and immoral. Bollocks Blame distribution for selling to us at so high prices we can't compete, Blame Publishers like sony for tying up exclusive deals that upset the very people they serve, the buying public, Blame the high giants who are too greedy and will untimately be the downfall of this industry DO NOT BLAME THE INDIE SHOPS FOR TRYING TO SURVIVE.
Anyone from a major retailler that rats on any Indie for selling imports is a GRASS and should look at their own employers tactics before passing judgement.
I WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THOSE IN DISTRIBUTION THAT WANT TO CONTINUE TO BRING THESE GAMES INTO THE UK AND SUPPORT THOSE BRAVE SOULS WE KNOW AS INDIES THAT WANT TO MAKE MONEY AND NEED TO MAKE MONEY TO SURVIVE
VIVA LA REVOLUTION

At last - a real indies fews on this matter !!!!!

Too many people that work for Nationals on here or Publishers.

I personally think that it is the Xenon Xyanide and her boss Ciderman360 using other names and carrying on to slag off indies, but you never know. Might have been someone from Centresoft or Sony - as sales of the PS3 will not be as good as they had hopped.

Am i the only one that finds this all a bit strange?

Don't ALL indies import games?

And don't all indies break street dates?

We are in an industry that allows our customers to buy most games cheaper than we can, we are all getting our credit limits cut or taken away, and our suppliers are living in a bubble of denial.

Aren't we all just trying to survive the best way we can and does our tiny market share really make a difference in the greater scale of things?

Or maybe it's just ME

We've been forced to hide some more comments for either A) accusing people of things by name or B) directly accusing specific businesses of underhand tactics.

As we said before, if you can avoid accusation and name dropping then we shouldn't have to hide any more comments.

We Indies have been imorting games for years and some may even have broken street dates. we all know it goes on.

Seems strange that no publishers, ditributors or manufacturers have commented on this issue, ONLY 2 MALICIOUS GAMESTATION EMPLOYEES JEALOUS AT THE SUCCESS OF A HARD WORKING INDIE.

Just as a side note i have been told by an employee of a major national distributor that they encourage indies to sell early so that they can sell more restocks by the weekend

Sorry Ben - will re-word it. But one question mate - you "A) accusing people of things by name" has this not been done to Grainger from the very start??? But never removed. There is no proof to this and a company has had people writing about it?

Anyway - I have spoken to various indies today and they all agree with what I have had to say and what Grainger have been said to be doing on here.

They have also said that they get problems with a certain Nation Retail company staff all the time - moaning about imported stock from teh US and Euopre. Telling customers taht the stock is against the law etc - scaring of customers.

After speaking with various indies about this National (no names at all here Ben) it would apear to me that this is something they are all being told to say. Sadly some of them are here saying it too.

Excuse me? Grassing up to and trying to get indies into trouble? It sounds like more than two people are here John.

What?, so your agreeing that the company has done something wrong and hoping that they continue to operate in this manner and spread like wildfire around the country?

Are you forgeting that it is AGANIST the law to sell ghostbusters on Xbox 360 in the UK with a fake BBFC 15 rating on the box. End of, ka pish?

And now they are not accepting returns? what if somebody bought it the game and it was faulty? John, can you see whats going on?

A company has sold a game, illegally, ok, still with me? yes? with a uncertified BBFC rating on the box. Thats the main argument, not jealously of how the company is raking in the cash or how you magically think a certain somebody gives advice on what not.

A link to a site with a private log in? Where does this site state what he or she does in thier spare time? hmmm? Where does it state this in depth personal information that you've somehow magically gleaned?

The way how you know GG its treating its customers, by fasley advertising the game as a certified 15 rated game by the BBFC and not informing them of the NO RETURNS POLICY and then later saying they've never seen the game before.
I've got photographic evidence of the game box which still has the GG price sticker on it and the receipt stating that its a Deal of the week, till code reference mxt. Sold for excatly forty pounds and it should be interesting what trading standards would say on this matter.

And for the person that mention his receipt had hardware rental printed on it when he purchased ghostbusters, isnt that aganist the law? You've recevied a game, boxed with the disc...not a console. Mr Tax man will be most pleased.

Sony has paid for an exclusivity clause in this region for Ghostbusters on PS3 and I bet they will be most pleased if they did find out a certain Tangerine company was selling the game under the counter IN RETAIL. Importing is always going to happen, there is no getting away with it. In retail however its going to be interesting to see what happens in the near future.

The excuse that every indie is doing it, does not mean its street legal or benefical to the customer.

Jon good point.

Why should other UK retailers stand by and suffer. Just because they maybe a bigger company does not mean breaking the law and harming other businesses is acceptable.

With the industry in a really quiet release period, I can see why some companies are getting deperate. The sale of Ghostbusters on 360 in the UK will hurt pre-owned margins of other retailers.

More or less everybody trades in there games now when they are sick of them. For example, if Joe Public did have this NTSC version of Ghostbusters on Xbox and they couldnt sell it through means of the web, how are they going to get their next new release in high street retail outlet if they are low on cash?

I dont know any shop in my area (Durham) which would take the game off my hands, I dont own a copy but this is a good point Jon has highlighed.

I havent been in a grainger games store but Consett Chips store is probably the first real indie store I've been in recently.

They havent been selling Ghostbusters and in fact they seem to play by the books in all respects, and they get along with nearby rivals. Nice little shop. Which to be honest is how it should be kept, a clean level playing field.

I have just got the new ghostbusters game on xbox360 and finished it. I when in to GG and was told i would get 25 trade. the next day when i went to trade it in i was told they were not takeing it in as they had not sold it it in the first place. i can tell u that im not shopping there anymore.

ps

by selling ghostbuster on 360 now it could damage how much it sales when it comes out in the uk later in the year.

Pleae tell me if i am wrong but isn't the Age rating for Ghostbusters on Xbox 360 a PEGI 12+ not a restricted BBFC 15

If I am wrong sorry but whats the fuss

PEGI and the BBFC have not rated this game because is has not been licensed for sale in Europe or the UK. Which means if anybody is selling it with these ratings or selling it at all in retail, the shop could get into alot of trouble.

They accept returns and trade in's - or they would not even sell it.

All indies will sell this title and good on them.

Poor Sony - should not have been greedy !

Poor Atari - will lose sales when they sell it over here - but should have had it region locked - or at least pay more money and have the PS2 and PS3 publishing rights.

End of the day - leave indies alone - as it is people that are not in the industry selling it on Ebay and making loads of money.

The game's rubbish anyway.

Interesting debate, and like most others on a website forum it draws out a lot of people's inner idiots. Before the rise of the internet forum, these people used to walk around the streets with a placard while they ranted their uninformed, attention-seeking drivel. Back then, we could see them clearly and all point and laugh at their complete grasp of any intelligent argument and the fact that they would never truly know the touch of a woman's skin. Now they have the forums to lurk on, the ultimate social democracy except it's really "power to the people powered by Microsoft", they suddenly seem to think that they are a cross between the wit of Oscar Wilde and the ethics of Che Guevarra, sticking it to "the man" like Gamestation while plucky little Grainger are their for the public - because they do it for love, people, not profit (that's why they charged £40 for Ghostbusters, despite one of my contacts telling me they were buying them in for around £20 each, and the average eBat price is £30).

I worked as a games journo for many years and have lived around the entire North East area, and my current job as a documentary filmmaker means I do move around it a lot still. I'm also old enough to remember when Grainger was just a stall in the market of the same name in the centre of Newcastle. I've been a gamer since 1976 (so I always enjoy being called a noob by someone who wasn't even an itch in their daddy's drunken keks when i was plugging in my first console or hitting the arcades), so I do know what I'm talking about here, though of course this will no doubt by hit be a wall of "Meh" by those who can't find anything constructive or witty to answer.

The truth is Grainger was a barrow-boy company the got lucky, like Alan Sugar - uncouth, but willing to do what it took to make cash. No amount of Hummers and Mini Coopers covered in gaudy stickers can make anyone with half a brain pretend otherwise. Everybody I know in the games industry hates them, and wants to see them gone.

As for the attacks on some of the posters here - I spend a lot of time in Hartlepool, and I frequent the branch of Gamestation there quite a lot, and I know all the staff by name. I find them all knowledgable, nice to talk to and share news with, and most of all the times when I'm buying things they are incredibly professional. I frequent all branches of both GS and Grainger in the area, and Hartlepool has the respective best and worst I have come across. Not once has anyone over all my years of going there talked about film piracy in any respect, so where that comes from I don't know. I always can't help but suspect that people who use Google to try and dig dirt and sho themselves as whiter than white probably have a hard drive full of pictures of ladyboys getting peed on anyway.

I like to use my relative anonymity and journalistic instinct to play devil's advocate, and will often do a "mystery shopper" thing just to amuse myself, and this week gave me a good chance. I was in there on friday and noticed the BBFC stickers with some disgust, and noticing that all the copies of Ghostbusters in Grainger had disappeared on Monday, I asked a member of staff if they had any as "I had heard from a mate you were selling it". "No, they said, it hasn't been released". "Oh, I heard you had the American one". "No, we haven't, we're not allowed to sell it". True, but apart from the last part this was just a big plain lie from the person in question. I have also seen Grainger selling games with photo-copied covers, "as the real one was lost", but I can't help but wonder if the disc is as fake as the packaging.

A lot of the attacks on the Gamestation folks are simply by people who don't know a thing about the real world because they spend too much time online and are too up themselves to realise that they are trying to defend the indefensible, for all the wrong reasons and without the brainpower needed to debate like an adult. Ultimately, while most of use enjoy games for fun, we have lives, respect, sex and other things that these both metaphorical and literal w*nkers will rarely achieve. They are content to pretend Facebook "friends" are just like real ones, and show their individuality by dressing up just like everyone around them.

If such a thing is possible, I think this thread just got won. :)

Nice speech Spartacus, now get from behind the counter and file the games and get them back on the shelf for the customers to buy from arguably the best retailer in the world Gamestation Hartlepool.

FAO Ben @ MCV, surely this amazing rallying cry above has to be removed as a post due to fact of this idiot mentioning about copied games being sold in store as this is just lies but what do you expect from this type of pond life.

i wonder how many people have gone in to grainger games this week just to see if they have ghostbusters after all this talking, they are going to need new carpet and a doorman soon lol, they couldnt have paid for this kind of ad campaign. anybody fancy giving them a called and seeing how much there footfall has gone up, any extra profit they would have made must now be blown on extra staff just to cope with the demand lol, look on the bight side guys it will soon be christmas

I have had 1000 units in today and selling them to lots of places ! So beware Gamestations arouind the UK - wont just be the muppets on here getting upset ! :)

after a bit of thinking, i have a question why are you all picking on this high street store when in fact the biggest problem we all have as indies and the big guys are internet auction sites that allow this to go on for years. pokemon platuim was on xxxx for £9.99 a few weeks ago, we know its a fake but xxxx still let it on the auction site and people buy it. american and australian games are always on the internet not to mention greystock maybe we should get that stopped first. as a high street indie myself i only sell uk stock and i play by the rules. but i can see why some indies dont, it hard work out here making £3 or £4 on a £40 game even harder when half the games that are released are just plain rubbish.

Thanks for the laughs Chris, better than Billy Connolly for comedy gold - read it carefully instead of hitting the keyboard before your brain is in gear, I rhetorically speculate about copies, not make an accusation, to get my point accross. And, as such, I don't breach any rules or laws so your rant to admin is even funnier - "I don't like what you have to see so you should be banned from saying it" seems to be your argument. Maybe you should use a nom de plume too now - "Iranian Police Supporter" perhaps.

It's what clever people do, this amazing skill called thoughtful debate, quite unlike calling someone a "bell end" or "pond life" in lieu of having a proper retort - if any comments need removing, it's ones that resort to such playground name calling. You couldn't have come across as more immature if you'd ended your rant with "nah nah na nah nah" and a smiley.

To give you another example of Grainger's practice, a friend of mine was once stung by an eBay seller into buying a bootleg game, and because they couldn't return it they chanced their arm trading it at a branch of Grainger - a day later the box was out on sale (as NEW too, a yellow and not an Orange sticker). Can we all agree that selling pirated games is illegal, and that marking traded games as new is not on either? They may not have been aware of the nature, and the printing was nicely done, but the blue disc was a dead giveaway. But I can't find any excuse for passing it off as new.

Company laws exist to, er, protect companies and consumers, and that includes "indies". Porsche make cars that can do 170mph, but the UK speed limit is in place for a reason - it is unsafe for them to do that kind of velocity on public roads. Some people think they can drive that fast and do no harm, but they are wrong. "Import" buyers kind of think that their activities are ok too, as it appears victimless. They personally may have "more choice" as is "their right" etc. etc., but often such practices threaten creative and retail jobs in companies that do play by the rules. Quite frankly I don't give a toss about selfish people who think that their right to do anything they like, and to hell with the bigger picture.

Not that you could win your argument anyway, as it is morally and factually all wrong, but as soon as you lose your rag like that you lose all credibility too. And guess what, you have. Obvious troll is obvious, as I believe the young people say. I don't have an axe to grind, I tell it like a I see it, and I obviously see it much more clearly than you.

People on here upset are people that are not allowed to sell it and beating off and getting upset at people that are selling it.

I'm a buyer, not a seller, and I've never worked in a shop in my life. That doesn't mean I can't tell good shops from bad ones, and good staff from bad ones. Gamestation Hartlepool staff are helpful and know games, Grainger Hartlepool staff often don't seem to give a monkey's - of course there are exceptions, but many is the time I've asked for help or advice and been referred to someone else because they obviously had no clue about games. One guy who was shunting things around on the shelves once to me to go "bug someone behind the counter doing nowt, I'm busy".

This is about legal versus illegal practices, and moral versus immoral choices. Hey, maybe I am Spartacus.

Hi Ex Games Journo do you believe that it is fair and legal for High Street giants, gamestation and game included, and Supermarkets to Buy games from Publishers and then sell at a loss to entice customers away from honest hardworking Indies who cannot afford to sell any game at a loss.

If you were an Indie owner with only one shop who has been battered constantly by major retailers slashing prices to try and put you out of business so they can get a bigger slice of the pie, wouldn't you try and take every opportunity to sell a product that they didn't.

Answer me honestly if your shop was your livelyhood wouldn't you.

Grainger Games may well be one of the biggest Indie in the country but us Indies that only have one shop and rely on these opportunities we have to take them.

What a debate! Ex Games journo your a legend :) What more can be said on the matter but "owned". Now you've just got to be careful of those brightly coloured hummers where ever you do drive lol

ex games journo has blown you little tangerine fan boys out the water.... great posts :)

First, many thanks for the kind comments above, nice to see other people think the same as I do.

You make a fair point Indie RIP, and I can recall the heady pre-internet days of seeing an imported N64 and all that in the local shop (there was one in the Green Market in newcastle, now long gone, but sorry I can't remember it). It was exciting to see the new stuff, and to talk about it with the owner/staff.

The thing is, small shops set up by genuine games enthusiasts to serve hardcore gamers is one thing, but Grainger are mass market now, and getting to be as much a high street chain as Gamestation, and yet they cling on to the pretence of being an Indie shop "helping out the gaming fans" through deliberate malpractice, such as early releases and imports direct in store.

Nobody in the industry I have met really cares that much about single-branch indies because they don't turn over enough copies to really make a dent - Grainger, though, can. I regularly visit both their main Newcastle branch, and their branches in the Metro Centre, Middlesbrough and South Shields (which could really use an air freshener BTW) and they are never full of games geeks (and we do show sometimes!) but rather what I would class as mainstream or casual clientel. Only their new branch in Stockton seems to be conspicuously quite, but it is stuck off the highstreet and main shopping precinct (which has a Gamestation and HMV and Game respectively).

In my mind, I live and breath games and have since the late 1970s, walking a six mile round trip with a bag of 2ps to slot into Galaxian and Asteroids at the arcades at Seaton Carew and using my pocket money to rent Atari VCS carts (and "video nasties") from the video shop. The recent Wolfenstein 3D release on Live made me think of my very first PC, a creaky 386. I love them. Did then, do now, but the industry is too precious and precarious for sellers to take all this hard work and behave how they like to make a quick buck. Grainger are in it for the money, and any respect they pretend to have for gamers is a sham. If they really cared, they would vet their staff better, and get ones that can actually answer basic questions.

Hmm..

They broke the law by selling those games, that's a fact. The indie vs big chain debate is something else entirely. You can't defend Grainger on this issue by waving that flag.

@ Indy RIP:

If you're an owner, I feel your pain. I would love to run an indie games store, but right now I just wouldn't. The future of the retail market will only make it even harder, as digital distribution becomes more of a force.

Why should a publisher give any retailer a cut when they can sell direct to the customer?

I'm not slating the concept of indies, I love them just as much as anyone else--but continually slating supermarkets/highstreet on "they're squashing the competition, we can't compete" grounds won't achieve anything.

Whether it's right or not, it's market economics--a capitalist and corporate society. If companies have the buying power, they get the prices. They can sell for cheaper and take losses of course. If anything, you can always attempt to blame the government for letting the GAME/Gamestation takeover go through and not checking the rise of Tesco.

It passed on the spurious argument that by merging, GAME would not be dominant in the total market due to the growth of online space. The commission guys missed the fact that online retailers have to carry less stock so can't buy in as big anyway, leaving GAME/Gamestation conglomerate probably buying the most stock, so getting the best terms and prices. Tesco will probably rival this when they get their games offering together in terms of buying power.

The entire business model of the independent games store is under threat from how the market has moved -- that can't be argued. From recent competition commissions, the government is not going to protect them in the same way they aren't protecting other small retailers - grocers and so forth.

Selling more and more in the grey market will delay the inevitable at risk of punishment, but it might be a question of re-invention or death for the indie. I look forward to seeing what they all do and honestly wish them every success!

Will continue to sell Grey for as long as we can stay in business. And the end of the BBFC and moving towards the new Pegi is a massive life for Indies, as we can continue to get better prices from supplier like Creative, Keyne and Ideal !

Totally understand why! I'm just saying that people can't use the victim card as an excuse for defending themselves selling grey / breaking laws.

It'll be interesting to see where all retail is heading over the next ten years, definitely hope that independents recreate themselves so they have space in the brave new world. :)

Hello

Just thought I would throw my comments in here

As an owner of an indie game store I can certainly say that the market is not a level playing field.

Why do game get exclusives, how is one meant to compete with that?

Why are game allowed to return unsold stock to suppliers, and no-one else is, allowing them to lure customers in with a better returns policy and allowing themselvs to stock more?

Why do larger retailers get such lower prices then smaller retailers?

Perhaps if the industry treated the smaller retailers better we would have more small family run 20 - 40 store mini chains (like grainger), and not the behemoth that is Game Group with its 1000+ stores.

I respect and admire Grainger for what they are doing, and maybe the industry should listen, besides, why is this game only on PS3, 360 is the dominent console in the UK.

Martin

Nope, the market isn't a level playing field and it'll take a fundamental change in the way games retail / distribution currently works for it to be that way again.

Sadly the answer to all three of your questions is pretty much one and the same thing. Large companies get return rights and exclusives because they buy stock (most often direct) in big enough quantity to make the process and amounts of money worthwhile in the eyes of the publishers and suppliers.

If you could buy enough stock, you'd get the rights as you'd be controlling the purse strings. The business model of your average stand-alone indie store will never fall in line with that. Even chain indies will get to a stage where the larger they become, the more they'll come into the firing line of competition against the behemoths and into the public eye - meaning grey business practise just won't cut it anymore.

The real question is - is it a question of fair / unfair, or simply a question of what makes business sense?

well well well, people being called gypos etc etc, ever seen game/gamestation prices used consoles and games £5 cheaper than new, wow talk about rip of merchants, i say sell the game if you can, there isnt many things indies can make profit on, ds games dont sell due to r4, and to be honest i know of 5 people who have just downloaded the ghostbusters usa version for their flashed xbox 360s, at least indies are selling a product bought as an import.
We also made a killing on pokemon platinum before uk release, why because supermakets and all other shops were selling close to cost price and customer dont even want to trade in against the game when its already alot cheaper else where, sorry but you either try to survive or you go under, last time i was in game/gamestation the music was so loud i couldnt hear what the smelly emo staff member offered me for my trade ins since i get rid of all my crap at game/gamestation bless them

Just bought GhostBusters today at GGames.
The box on the shelf had the 15 BBFC rating on it, so I assumed it was released. When I got home I noticed it was an NTSC, ESRB rated, made in the USA game.
No wonder the sales assistant didn't comment when I said I couldn't see it in GameStation, probably because he knew it wasn't released and it was an import he was selling me, for £40.
As other people, the receipt says "Console Rental" and not the actual game I bought.
I'll be going back tomorrow to get a Credit Note or my money back for being misled. Luckily I haven't broke the seal on it.
After all, I bet it's going to be a bugger to trade-in. I know Gamestation won't take anything that doesn't have a UK rating on it.

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i work in a grainger store and i can recall practically all the gamestation staff buying ghostbusters on the 360 the day or day after we started selling it. They didnt seem to be bothered about it being ''illegal'' then.