your kidding right?...

if anything microsoft should just counter sue and request that every name on the list of this class action be prosicuted for piracy.

this is another american lawyer trying to get famous from an idea.

Regardless of whether Microsoft did time it deliberately, It doesn't make it right to have a modded console for pirated games.

What a joke this Law firm are.

"Additionally, sales of both games would likely have been greatly diminished had the Xbox console ban occurred prior to the release of these games"

Not at all, these people have modded consoles, do you really think their heart is set out on buying it for £30-£40 when they know they can just download it? Wow this firm is really thick. So frustrating that a law firm can back these people up.

"modification of Xbox consoles is against the terms of use for Xbox/Xbox Live"

nuff said...no case!

Oh, let's take pity on the poor little modders who are now throwing a hissy fit because they got caught!

MS should not only ban then but also ban any new users registered on the same credit card or with the same name at the same address!

Two words for all the people at this law firm, and all the modders who got caught.

EPIC

FAIL

Where something happens there is a lawyer ready to sue in America. I think they have bitten off more than they can chew here.

Modded console = pirate = criminal = no case.

Ridiculous if this gets further than the theoretical stage.

@ukdazza:

>Modded console = pirate = criminal = no case.

Bullshit.

I had mine modded so that the DVD drive would not always spin at a very noisy 12* - but instead at 2*. That is hardly piracy.

Furthermore I legally OWN that console, I did not rent it from MS, I bought it - it's mine. Xbox Live was part of the deal when I bought the console. I also paid for the ability to be able to install games to my harddrive, to minimize load times. At no point did I agree that any company was allowed to (partially) disable any feature of MY hardware.

1 - "Furthermore I legally OWN that console... Xbox Live was part of the deal when I bought the console..."
2 - "At no point did I agree that any company was allowed to (partially) disable any feature of MY hardware."

1 - Xbox Live is a service, it's not part of your hardware, therefore you don't own it and Microsoft can simply choose not to provide you with that service in future.

2 - Microsoft have not disabled any feature of your hardware, again they have simply chosen to stop providing a service.

While you might feel that you should be allowed to make the modifications you describe your terms of use of the Xbox will have clearly stated that such modifications are not allowed. You've breached those conditions and paid the penalty.

You are obviously only half informed. The hard disks of those consoles that got banned have been "locked". Banned consoles with "locked" hard drives are not capable of installing games to the hard disk anymore - although - of course - you had to pay for this "feature" to be enabled in the past.

Furthermore I (and others of course) can not access or use the "Live Points" I bought anymore, nor did I receive any refund notification. That's theft - plain and simple.

Ontop of that such a "you may buy our stuff but not touch it" regulations might be a common thing in the land of the homeland security bollocks or in the UK - but they are not where I come from. I am not used to some company messing with MY property without me agreeing to it - and I won't take it.

its just like downloading a bootleg version of a computer program and then downloading an update and getting in trouble from the company noticing that you have a bootleg copy of a program that by all means you stole from them, now i know theres no modd or program to buy to make your system quiter or or to change the way that the sytem is to run, the terms and conditions clearly say not to modd and if you do you will be penilized, deal w/ it, go ahead and modd, im not saying im for the modding , just dont hook it up online, its your own damn fault, if your gonna make your system do something its not supposed to then their gonna take away things that it should, its a fair trade to me, a modd is a modd and xbox live is a privilage not a right, you got caught, NOW GO GET YOUR DIAPERS CHANGED AND QUIT WHINING

I pity most of the commentators - to them it seems to be ok that some company tells them what to do with their property. But hey... society needed more numb, ball less, authority obedient bootlickers anyway - so why not let MicroSoft tell us how to use our property.

Next up: AMD (ATi) and nvidia form a coop with MicroSoft and add a few lines of code to their driver updates, disabling all gfx adapters that run under Linux, Unix and the like - after all they sold the card to us, why not tell us what OS to use either?

So, Sea says it's alright to break the law?

Sea, maybe you just need to read through the Terms and Conditions a bit more clearly.. I don't know.

I still believe that anybody who takes these delusional fools seriously has to be a fool themselves, if they honestly think they can beat Microsoft.

You may not like it, but you can't fight it on something so trivial such as this.

Excellent to see the tables turned on the freeloading greedy pirate scum for once. Makes a refreshing change fom seeing news headlines about how much IP they are stealing through BitTorrent. I hope we see more wins like this in the industry's favour, before too many more developers go bust.

I have not been banned from Xbox Live (yet) but I am confused as to how MS can ban you. My understanding is that when you buy an xbox, or any other item, it becomes your property and as such you have the right to do whatever you want to it, granted there is a warranty period and should the unit fail within this period and you have done anything to it they can refuse to repair it but outside this warranty period what right do MS or any other manufacturer have to dictate what you can and cannot do to your own property.. I am also led to believe that the only way MS can check if your running a modded box is to basically interrogate your xbox, they then disable certain funcitionality... is the right to do this given to MS when you buy a box new?? what if you buy a second hand one, surely you have no contract with MS then.. Also it is not illegal to make a back up copy of any game you legally own, therefore as long as you playing the original on line and the back up off line how can they ban you.... If MS just put a serial code in with each game that has to be registered when first playing the game on line wouldn't this stop the pirates or is this to simplistic....

"Also it is not illegal to make a back up copy of any game you legally own"

accualy NickJhon it is, "unathorized copying, reverse enginering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play or circumvention of copy protection is stricly prohibited"

Hi Matt, I might be wrong I was just going off information I have read, namely;

THE UK COPYRIGHT, DESIGNS AND PATENTS ACT 1998

This specifically allows the making of back-up copies of software, but only providing it is for lawful use and as long as you are in possession of the original software.

There is also

The Copyright And Rights Regulations Act

whereby Computer games users enjoy a special privilege under the existing copyright law. According to Section 50(A) of the
1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, legal purchasers of computer games are explicitly permitted to make a backup
copy of their purchase.

I was of the understanding that under the Copyright And Rights Regulations Act any software publisher which implements any form of copy-protection on its discs will be breaking the law. Because it’s an offence to deprive the consumer of any right which is explicitly granted to him in law. And if you implement copy protection which there is no legal way to circumvent (which, thanks to the CRRA, there now isn’t) then you are, obviously, depriving the consumer of the opportunity to exercise his right to a backup.

As I say I might be wrong but there are various business selling backup games for £4 each as long as you own a copy of an original and they don't seem to be getting closed down...

w/ all that said, the honesty policy went out the window a long time ago, you say as long as the copier has possesion of the original copy, well there is no way to legitimently tell that the game being played is the copy of the original and not just a download and no legit way to know if the person playing has possesion of the original copy, so there for they put locks on there games to attempt to stop piracey and keep there company have an income, but you know what tho, everybody should trust everyone and leave there doors unlocked, not put any protection on anything and never try to protect anything that they made or owned, everything in the world should be free and nothing shold be restricted, copyrights shouldnt exist, you keep makeing ilegal copies of stuff and not give credit to the developers by buying another copy when your copy wears out, sooner or later theyll run out of money to create the lovely games that everyone wants to play but no one wants to buy, people abuse the ability so it was attempted to be taken away, honesty is no longer trust worthy, its how the world works, deal w/ it, some people have good intentions but the people that dont wreck it for the rest of the people that do, its the way the world works. copying games = selling copies = game industy goes down = no more games to play. if you still want to back up hackers and theives than make your own damn game company and have it happen to you and see how you like it.

Hi Matt, You seem to have a very biased view of the world, not all people who make backup copies of games do so to "steal" from the developers. I make backup copies because I cant afford to buy another copy when the original gets scratched, unfortunately this is what happens when you have youngsters in a house..... As i said previously with the wonders of modern technology I do not see why an original game cannot have a unique serial number which has to be registered to allow on line gaming - similar to most other software.. Another factor is the power which large corporates like MS have and their ability to walk all over the innocent man in the street when it suits them.. e.g. if your disc player breaks down in you xbox [out of the warranty period] you have to take it to an authorised dealer for repair - you cannot repair it yourself or have an unauthorised agent carry out a repair or you will be banned from Xbox live as you have tampered with the unit... How is this fair - the unit is not under warranty - the disc player has no unlimited warranty - they have you by the short and curlies and force a monopoly situation on you which swells their profits - how does this benefit the end user or the developers???? I would hazard a guess that of the 600,000 users recently banned their will be a large number of innocent [and yes before you say it a larger number of guilty] users who are now faced with giving MS a nice xmas profit.....

"I make backup copies because I cant afford to buy another copy when the original gets scratched, unfortunately this is what happens when you have youngsters in a house"

I have seen this lame excuse trotted out so many times by pirates who try to justify making "back ups", in a vain attempt to pull the wool over our eyes. We weren't born yesterday son.

Here's some useful advice for you from a parent with two young kids, an Xbox 360 and a collection of ORIGINAL games:

1) When not playing a game, store your ORIGINAL disc in its box, on a high shelf or in a locked cupboard

2) Tell your kids that they are not allowed to handle the discs themselves. If they want to play a game, they ask you to load it up

Simplez - and surprise surprise, no law breaking or lame excuses required. But then I think you really knew that, didn't you?

No offence intended but the law isn't as cut and dried as you appear to suggest - copyright owners aren't prohibited from taking steps to protect their work. Please see for example the last paragraph on this case report:
http://www.out-law.com/page-8701
The judgement is also of interest.

It seems worth noting that there are other concerns than the law, consumers and pirates - it isn't just copyright owners who are concerned about illegitimate copies, indeed I was first told over a decade ago that we had to copy protect our games because otherwise retailers would refuse to stock them.

No offence intended but the law isn't as cut and dried as you appear to suggest - copyright owners aren't prohibited from taking steps to protect their work. Please see for example the last paragraph on this case report:
http://www.out-law.com/page-8701

It seems worth noting that there are other motivations than the law, consumers and pirates - it isn't just copyright owners who are concerned about illegitimate copies, indeed I was first told over a decade ago that we had to copy protect our games because otherwise retailers would refuse to stock them.

>I am not used to some company messing with MY property without >me agreeing to it - and I won't take it.

Well, considering they've been kicking people off Xbox live on a yearly basis for 7 years, since 2002 you're either a whiney b*tch who's on their first cracked console or you have no awareness of history. I'm all for MS kicking those of you with modified consoles off xbox live - I've seen online gaming ruined in the past with hacks and cheats and this is no different, take the cash you've saved by downloading warez and spend it on a new console. They haven't modified your hardware have they, they've just recognized you've got a modified console and have banned you from their online system and as such all the bits of the dashboard that you used to enjoy using that required logging in to XBL (film play etc.) have ceased to work. But they've not actualy modified anything. You can do what you like with your console, they don't have to let you on to their network.

If you didn't know the risks and the rules of this little dance then you're an idiot, console modders known the risks, you've had a nice ride for a year or so and now it's time to start afresh.

Why not sue the bloke who sold you the mod that now doesn't work? He probably won't send the lawers out, probably his mates with a blunt weapon or two but why not sue the bloke that sold you the mod that actualy caused this issue?

Also why not take some personal responsibility for your decision?

"1) When not playing a game, store your ORIGINAL disc in its box, on a high shelf or in a locked cupboard
2) Tell your kids that they are not allowed to handle the discs themselves. If they want to play a game, they ask you to load it up"

This has to be the biggest load of rubbish I have read in ages, what world do you live in, have you no respect for your children or are you truly a control freak............

We live in the 21st century, I for one don't treat my children like imbeciles...

One thing I do get from all the posts on this site is that the "developers" of games seem to accept no responsibility for what happens they just sit back and applaud MS...

If the actions of pirates are so bad to your industry get off your arses and do something about it....

If copying your games is truly illegal then start actions against the sites out there selling backup games, there not hard to find start with Google and get a solicitor.....

Unfortunately for you all its the high price of games that allows pirates to prosper, give it a few more weeks and there will be another fix to get ahead of MS - then MS will play catch up - ban a load of users [all the developers will cheer] then we are back to stage 1..... Do you not see a cycle here guys..........

"One thing I do get from all the posts on this site is that the "developers" of games seem to accept no responsibility for what happens they just sit back and applaud MS..."

What exactly do you think developers should accept responsibility for?

"If the actions of pirates are so bad to your industry get off your arses and do something about it...."

"If copying your games is truly illegal then start actions against the sites out there selling backup games, there not hard to find start with Google and get a solicitor....."

Your advice is that we play whack-a-mole and add to our costs?

But on the other hand you think prices are too high?

As for your criticism of Jolly Roger's point, I don't want to tell you how to raise your kids but your position doesn't seem logical: if your kids are incapable of properly using the discs, surely they need to be supervised along the lines of Jolly Roger's suggestion.

Ah, at last, you admitted in your last post are breaking the law because you don't want to pay "high prices" for games. Same old.

Your logic about "backing up" Xbox 360 discs is completly flawed. So where do you personally draw the line...do you copy all your music albums too, in case "the kids" break them? What about all your movie DVDs? Do you clone your car, because you know how easily it can get scratched?

Yes my last example is ridiculous - just like your flimsy case for justifying your illegal activities.

"Ah, at last, you admitted in your last post are breaking the law because you don't want to pay "high prices" for games."

Not sure where in my post I admitted to breaking the law due to high prices - I suggest you start reading things slightly better, what i said was;

"if copying your games is truly illegal then start actions against the sites out there selling backup games" - I don't have a web site selling backup games so i'm not sure where you think I admit I do....

"Unfortunately for you all its the high price of games that allows pirates to prosper" this is a comment about the fact, console games are just deemed to be too high. The recent release of the new COD for example I bought, yes bought for all you non believers who seem to have me tagged as an illegal pirate, a copy from Morrisons supermarket for £24.99 yet Game sell it for £44.99. In the eyes of the user it is perceived that the likes of Game are just ripping people off when Morrisons can sell the exact same thing £20 cheaper..
With a replacement cost of £44 I will make a back up copy, were all games around the £20 mark the argument would not be there.

"So where do you personally draw the line...do you copy all your music albums too, in case "the kids" break them? What about all your movie DVDs?" My music collection I put onto an Ipod which connects into the stereo in my car so there is no fear of damage to the discs, however I reference my point above the cost of music cd's is a few £'s so there is not the need to make backups just buy new ones. The same goes for DVD's they are so cheap now a days its not worth the hassle..

@NickJohn, your kids have parents who break the law, being treated like imbeciles should be the least of their worries. Maybe you should concentrate on setting a better example by NOT breaking the law instead.

I'm also interested to know how YOU make the backup copies as the PC won't read 360 discs by default. So you have obviously taken deliberate steps to bypass the protection system, which is illegal. Or maybe you simply download or buy them.

And yes, we should be doing something about it... hopefully, MCV will have logged your IP, passed it onto FAST and letting them do their work. It makes me laugh when people like you have the gall to come onto a developers site, and boast about making backups, justified by some flimsy excuse about "protecting the originals".

I'm sure you must have a house full of original and copied disks of every CD, DVD and game... unless you've now "lost the originals", or "the original was damaged by one of the children", or "the dog ate it". I'm sure if you were asked to provide a picture of every copy and its associated original, you'd have a problem doing so.

And Sea, why would you need to pay for the ability to install games to the harddrive, when you can legally do that anyway? Sounds like you're another of the losers who quite rightly got kicked off live. Perhaps you should just save up for a PS3, they're nice and quiet... good luck with THOSE load times though.

"Not sure where in my post I admitted to breaking the law due to high prices - I suggest you start reading things slightly better, what i said was;..."

Try here...

"I make backup copies because I cant afford to buy another copy when the original gets scratched"

Making backups of protected discs is breaking the law, those are your quotes, nobody else's.

Hi LeeC thanks for the post its interesting to get another, aggressive, response.

If you read my first post you will see I have not, nor have I ever been banned from Xbox Live. I have a working console.

My posts are NOT from a pirate bemoaning the state of affairs set upon me by MS with their recent bout of bans, it was in reference to previous posts given which seemed to take a hard line (developers) stance that anyone who modifies an xbox is a criminal and that no explanation will be accepted or tollorated.

I also feel that an interpretation of the THE UK COPYRIGHT, DESIGNS AND PATENTS ACT 1998 and The Copyright And Rights Regulations Act allows for backup copies to be made without breaking the law.

The points made by JS, reference http://www.out-law.com/page-8701, are interesting and debatable. Not having a legal mind my understanding of the case was it was brought against a chip supplier and was about territorial licensing not specifically backing up games, but as I say I am no solicitor and I may have miss read the judgement.

As developers feel there is, and never will be, a justification for backing up games then you must make a stance. Take a case against someone openly promoting the sale of backed up games (Google - solicitor its not hard to find them) when you win the case it will set a legal precedence and you will close the loophole for good..

"The points made by JS, reference http://www.out-law.com/page-8701, are interesting and debatable. Not having a legal mind my understanding of the case was it was brought against a chip supplier and was about territorial licensing not specifically backing up games, but as I say I am no solicitor and I may have miss read the judgement."

My point was that publishers are entitled to protect their software, and although the consumer does have the right to back up his software, he does not have the right to circumvent copy protection.

"As developers feel there is, and never will be, a justification for backing up games then you must make a stance. Take a case against someone openly promoting the sale of backed up games (Google - solicitor its not hard to find them) when you win the case it will set a legal precedence and you will close the loophole for good.."

Eh? It is already illegal for them to sell "backed up games"*, so why do we need to "set a legal precedence" (sic)?

* don't you mean pirated games?

I think it's about time this sort of thing happened and also while these big corporations are at it i hope they come up with a device to disable R4 cards for DS Lites!!!

This will almost certainly bring more business to struggling local traders and put the money in the hands of the people who have earned the right to collect it, and not into the hands of criminals who run the likes of download websites!

Good on Microsoft and long may you rein!!!